Hello
I am coming across from Mikrotik and have a few questions.
I currently have about 900 customers most are on 2.4
Can I really get 150 customers on an AP where I normally can only get 30?
What is the minimum signal level needed to connect? would you connect a SM with a -78?
If I have the Canopy on Ch1 will my 802.11 work on Ch11?
Out of 1000 SM’s, how many do you need to reboot or replace each week?
With the sync thing, do I need that if I only have 2 or 3 AP’s on each tower?
With an Advantage AP and 100 Sm’s connected and running, will I really see 14Mbps across the AP’s ether port?
Is the Cyclone gear any good? (I hope that is not a disrespectful question in this forum)
Will teh SM’s run on 12 volts so I don’t need to change 900 Power supplies?
Thanks for all your help.
Hopefully one day I can give back knowledge instead of always taking it as I fear I will be doing in this forum for a while.
Hi there !
Welcome aboard !
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:53 am
Posts: 1
Hello
I am coming across from Mikrotik and have a few questions.
I currently have about 900 customers most are on 2.4
Can I really get 150 customers on an AP where I normally can only get 30?
Technically, yes you can, but it really depends on what bandwidth controls you have in place, what UP/DOWN ratios you are committing to each customer, etc.
What is the minimum signal level needed to connect? would you connect a SM with a -78?
I would like to see a little bit better fade margin, preferabbly in the low -70s. BUT, we have many customers that hug that line at -78 or a hair worse. Potential interference is the gotcha, so having 6 db of fade from “working” would be suggested.
If I have the Canopy on Ch1 will my 802.11 work on Ch11?
Some factors… vertical separation will help some. Run your 802.11 at Horizontal polarity if possible. Or you could run Canopy connectorized APs at horizontal, but need horizontal stingers or connectorized SMs running with external antenna. We have some of our customers doing that succesfully. They connectorize every SM to run horizontal.
Out of 1000 SM’s, how many do you need to reboot or replace each week?
Reboot… 10 to 15 per week. Replace, 1 to 2, unless you are in heavy lightning areas. Dont skip the 600SS surge surpressor install and proper grounding
With the sync thing, do I need that if I only have 2 or 3 AP’s on each tower? Absolutely you need sync with more than one AP. There are cheap ways to do it. 1) if you are not syncing with another tower, you can just use a sync cable (make one) and make one AP Generate Sync and the other(s) receive sync. We have some remote towers that have run that since 2002. If you going to have two towers that can “hear” each other, even with frequency planning, you should run GPS sync. My favorite is the PacketFlux SyncPipe Deluxe or the Syncinjector modules (http://www.packetflux.com). Forrest is great with help there.
With an Advantage AP and 100 Sm’s connected and running, will I really see 14Mbps across the AP’s ether port?
Maybe not exactly 14Mbps, but pretty close. If all your SMs are running at 2x, software setting based on signal level, you should be real close
Is the Cyclone gear any good? (I hope that is not a disrespectful question in this forum)
Cyclone gear is good. There are other fully legal alternatives, less expensive optioins to get the job done. PM me with a phone # if you need more info.
Will teh SM’s run on 12 volts so I don’t need to change 900 Power supplies?
I have not run them extended that way, but I have heard they do. Our Site Survey backpack that we made runs the SM at 12 volts just fine.
-Paul
Paul McCall, PDMNet
Canopy Equipment Sales and Repair Specialists
658 Old Dixie Highway
Vero Beach, FL 32962
772-564-6800
Hello Paul
Thanks for all your help!
Out of 1000 SM’s, how many do you need to reboot or replace each week?
Reboot… 10 to 15 per week. Replace, 1 to 2, unless you are in heavy lightning areas. Dont skip the 600SS surge surpressor install and proper grounding
That seems quite high, I read the MTBF was 40 years.
One of the main reasons I am “coming to the dark side” was the long life expectancy of the SM’s.
I am also told Canopy handles interference much better.
Thanks again.
There is no question that the Canopy handles interference MUCH better than anything else. When you asked about coexistence with 802.11 gear, my answer had to do with having the 802.11 function AT ALL
Canopy has a Carrier to Interference ratio of from 2:1 to 3:1. meaning you need at least 3 db or more of your own signal than interfering signal. Having a buffer of about 6 db gives you predictability that you are very safe.
SMs can last longer. I cant speak for your power there. SMs will someone times take a small power hit that weakens the RF or makes Ethernet flakey. I cant imagine a surge would not damage non-canopy equipment as well. MTBF is a lab figure that cant take power surges into account
I dont think it is a point of major concern though.
Paul
Thank you once again.
PM sent
Can I really get 150 customers on an AP where I normally can only get 30?
100 to 150 depending on bandwidth allocations and bandwidth shaping. coming From MT you probably have some pretty well defined filters and rules.
What is the minimum signal level needed to connect? would you connect a SM with a -78?
Depends on your noise floor. Canopy needs 3dB above the noise floor (or -85dB Rx threshold) to register. Add 3dB for fade and that is your minimum.
If I have the Canopy on Ch1 will my 802.11 work on Ch11?
Maybe
Out of 1000 SM's, how many do you need to reboot or replace each week?
With 170 installed in 4+ years I have replaced 2 SM's and 3 power supplies. We reuse the same radios over and over.
With the sync thing, do I need that if I only have 2 or 3 AP's on each tower?
Yes. But you can sync with PacketFlux SyncPipes. CMM's are not really necessary.
With an Advantage AP and 100 Sm's connected and running, will I really see 14Mbps across the AP's ether port?
Yes. But like any other Collision network when you run ut of bandwidth everything goes bad fast.
Is the Cyclone gear any good? (I hope that is not a disrespectful question in this forum)
Damn good. One thing to note: Canopy SM's do not run the full 36dB allowed. for whatever reason, the Tx power is 25dB and the internal antenna is 7dB for 32dB. the Last Mile stuff all runs at the max allowable EIRP.
Will teh SM's run on 12 volts so I don't need to change 900 Power supplies?
Yes, but you will not see the fill Tx power of the SM so your longer shots may suffer. Be sure to observe pinout - Canopy is reversed.
Thanks you very much for your help!
I am looking forward and excited but also very worried about changing my network over,
Thanks again
I would recommend that you peruse the manual. It’s extremely good.
Just my 2 cents…
Equis wrote: Can I really get 150 customers on an AP where I normally can only get 30?
Yes, but keep an eye to the aggregate bandwidth (7 Mbps if not advantage) and PPS of the AP. Does it fit on your service plan?
Equis wrote: What is the minimum signal level needed to connect? would you connect a SM with a -78?
Yes, I’m using 5.4 Ghz and they are reliable up to -79 / -80db (with no much noise).
Equis wrote: Out of 1000 SM’s, how many do you need to reboot or replace each week?
I never reboot any SM (we have about 350). They run 9.0 release.
We needed to replace some units (<10) in the past 2 years.
Equis wrote: With the sync thing, do I need that if I only have 2 or 3 AP’s on each tower?
We have some tower running two APs without CMM. Just a simple timing cable between them. No issues.
Equis wrote: With an Advantage AP and 100 Sm’s connected and running, will I really see 14Mbps across the AP’s ether port?
Due to the fact we generally have weak signals (70-75 db), we don’t use 2X. The aggregate on the AP reach sometimes something close to 7 (6.5) but it also depends on control slots and other parameters set on the AP.
Welcome aboard.
Massimo
What is the minimum signal level needed to connect? would you connect a SM with a -78?
On the SM side of things I have a few links at -81 or so with no issues. The AP side is where you have to really watch your signal because that is going to be where interference nails you the hardest and your noise floor is usually highest.
Out of 1000 SM's, how many do you need to reboot or replace each week?
I've had some bad luck with my last 25 pack, but everything was under warranty so RMA was easy. Other than that, we've maybe replaced 4 units that failed due to something other than environment (I've had a few go down from lightning). We have about 370SMs in the field.
With the sync thing, do I need that if I only have 2 or 3 AP's on each tower?
Again, when you have more than one AP on a tower this is a must. If you're going to use 900MHz, syncing every tower is a must because that signal carries a LONG ways. We can hear APs 40 miles away at some of our sites.
Is the Cyclone gear any good? (I hope that is not a disrespectful question in this forum)
Keep in mind the cyclone APs are Canopy guts with a nice case and an antenna connector. We use their CTM instead of Motorola's CMM for GPS timing because we can hook it up to whatever type of switch we want. I personally think the units are designed a little better. For single cell sites or remote cites we'll use the Packetflux SyncPipes for timing.
Will teh SM's run on 12 volts so I don't need to change 900 Power supplies?
I've ran a few SMs off of 12v supplies without issue (I did have to wire one of the ethernet ends reversed, as Jerry noted). I have not done this for an extended period of time, though. I think it says in the Canopy user guide what the power threshold is.
Equis wrote: Will teh SM's run on 12 volts so I don't need to change 900 Power supplies?
I have 2 AP 5400 powered by a 12V battery system (battery + solar panel + voltage regulator).
No issues so far, except once when the battery discharged and the AP voltage went down under 10 V for a long time.
Only in that case it lost the configuration.
If voltage is >11V I don't see any problem.