ePMP 3000 antenna options

Mimosa's first omni used 4 90 degree sectors (it had an integrated radio, so it's not really relevant to the ePMP 3k anyway)... you may have been looking at the specs for that, but yeah the N5-360 uses 4 overlapping 180's, so you should always be seeing at least two sectors (and three fairly often).

I just put up an ePMP 3000 on an N5-360, but so far I've only connected one SM to it, so I have no idea if MU-MIMO is going to work at all. I plan on switching on connecting several more to at in various directions over the next couple of weeks to see what it does.

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We are running the N5-360 with 5 clients right now - but MU-MIMO is turned off on the radio. However, it is working fine as just an omni for us with clients connected at 180 degrees around it.  Waiting to turn on MU-MIMO until 3rd party antenna support is ready.

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@Mathew Howard wrote:    ...the N5-360 uses 4 overlapping 180's, so you should always be seeing at least two sectors (and three fairly often)...   ...I plan on switching on connecting several more to at in various directions over the next couple of weeks to see what it does.

Awesome, I'd be very interested in your results. We have a few small sub-divisions where there are a dozen clients or so, and an OMNI will be the only thing that makes sense based on the budget and on the physical room we have available. 

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OK, I connected an N5-360 OMNI up to an e3K AP that we have up, and I left MU-MIMO turned on... just to see what would happen. These SM's actually seemed pretty OK with things, perforance seemed fine, and I did get a small amount of MU-MIMO gain even surprisingly.

The MU-MIMO gain wasn't nearly as good as the 4x4 sector not surprisingly - but of course, this was worst case scenario almost... This is BETA software (RC21) on AP and on SM's, it's an unsupported antenna, it's me not really knowing what to expect, and it was just a quick half-baked test without any adjustment or tweaking or anything.  But, it didn't explode, didn't go backwards in time, didn't cause Pon'Farr, or anything too horrible. :) 


4.3.1_RC21_BETA_4x4_OMNI_FEB_22_2019.jpg

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Ninedd,

Were you able to do any dual SM speed tests between group 1 SM's? Sounding quality and MCS is high so it seems you should get some pretty good speeds.

I would love to see AU Wireless turn on MU-MIMO and see his results.

We have a KP Performance KPP-5SX4-65, we will be testing very soon. Picked it due to it's high F/B ratio (38-40db).  Pretty optimistic about its MU-MIMO performance after seeing Ninedd's post. Already got a 3k up with the Cambium sector for testing this week, rain kept us from getting the KP up. 


@CWB wrote: Ninedd, Were you able to do any dual SM speed tests between group 1 SM's?

Not too much, just a couple quick tests and it seemed to perform 'fine', but not spectacularly.  It was just climb and connect the Omni in place of the Cambium Sector, just to see if it did 4x4 at all (which it did) and then switch back to the Sector. But the throughput tests were just 'OK', and there didn't seem to be be too much throughput gain.  Maybe if I left the Omni on for a longer period, maybe the AP would maybe have 'learned' more, and it probably/maybe would have improved. But - the point was just to do a quick test if MU-MIMO functioned at all with this Omni, which it apparently does to some degree already. Even being an officially non-supported antenna, in an early beta, in a quick non-optimal test.  :)

However, with the 4x4 Cambium Sector, the MU-MIMO tests were better.  I'm not sure if you've seen this from another post or not... but this is what i got in 40Mhz channel width, 75%/25% ratio, and testing to a couple Force300 clients.  413Mbit of throughput in 40 Mhz of spectrum is pretty awesome.  AND, the MU-MIMO Gain percentages were not optimal in this at all, so I suspect this 413Mbit number will be surpassed soon.

ePMP3000 AP, Cambium 90 Degree 4x4 Sector, 40Mhz channel, 75%/25% Ratio, Force300 SM - 4.3.1-RC21 Firmware.

4.3.1-RC21-BETA_Dual_Link_Test_40Mhz_413Mbit_FEB7_19.jpg


@ninedd wrote:

  I'm not sure if you've seen this from another post or not... 

ePMP3000 AP, Cambium 90 Degree 4x4 Sector, 40Mhz channel, 75%/25% Ratio, Force300 SM - 4.3.1-RC21 Firmware.

4.3.1-RC21-BETA_Dual_Link_Test_40Mhz_413Mbit_FEB7_19.jpg


Yep, I did. This is the best we have got so far with 20Mhz channels. Have not tried 40Mhz. 

20Mhz Channel 75/25 Cambium Sector

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Awesome, those are pretty good results.  I wasn't getting as high as MU-MIMO gain percentage on my tests I don't think.  Those are pretty good results for only 20Mhz of spectrum... that MU-MIMO is like 'free' spectrum in a way... pretty cool.

We planned the layout of our sector/s and SM's using information from Cambiums webinars for triggering max MU-MIMO for these tests. We had a 3rd SM up but decided to turn it off this morning to get a true reading between 2 SM's. We will turn it back on as we add the other units we have to test. 

Speaking of that, we got the KP 65 degree sector (KPP-5SX4-65) up today. Mounted it directly above the Cambium sector. Same frequency, azimuth, and downward tilt (electrical tilt taken into account as well). We turn AP's on and off with our switch for testing. As you can see in attached pic, it does not trigger MU-MIMO as well. These SM's are on opposite edges of the KP sector, hence the lower RSSI's as this has a 3db bandwidth of 60 degress at 5.7ghz. We will be littering the coverage area of both sectors soon with SM's and can get a better idea of performance. 

KPP-5SX4-65; KP Performance 65 degree sector

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We turned back on our 3rd SM this morning and realised it instantly shot up to 50-60% MU-MIMO gain after a few speedtests. Other 2 were still stuck in the teens. Deregistered them, and once they reconnected ran some speedtests with them. Their MU-MIMO gain percentage shot up as well. I guess the GUI was not reporting properly. Seems the KP 65 degree works pretty good for MU-MIMO...so far.  Will be adding more SM's and doing some F/B comparison between Cambium sector and KP asap. 

KP Performance 65 degree sector

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Awesome.  That is what Cambium said - it'll keep getting better and better the more SM's are on the sector.

I know in a coupel of the WISP groups, there are some fanboys of other manufacturers who are saying things like "yeah, but the CPE's need to be placed exactly in the right place" - which isn't accurate. Certainly if a test only has 2 SM's, then they'd need to be located in good spots vs bad spots for things to work well - but if your sector has 30 or 40 or 60 SM's, then there will be all sorts of MU-MIMO opportunities for the AP.  You don't have to 'place them' - just randomly connect customers as per normal, and the ePMP3000 AP takes care of the MU-MAGIC (tm).

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We threw up another SM yesterday with no rhyme or reason and all 4 that we have up can all work in MU-MIMO with at least 1 other unit, some with 2. This is with an antenna Cambium has not even approved for MU-MIMO... -yet- (KP Performance). 

These are all within 0.25 miles LOS. The real test is going to be when they are further away and/or have some obstructions in the way. Reflections, refractions, moving trees, etc will be a real test for MU-MIMO as the sounding has to keep udating. 

You might want to (tm) cnMU-MAGIC before Cambium does. Lol. 

You can not tell those fan boys anything. If you could, they would all be using Cambium. 

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> You might want to ™ cnMU-MAGIC
> before Cambium does. Lol

As long as they send me residual checks, we’re cool…

Hello guys,

This is a very interesting topic for me and I was so glad I found this thread.

I am adding the Mimosa device to a collection of 4x4 omni-directional antennas we have been considering for an improved throughput project we have been planning:

  1. KPPA 5.15 GHz to 5.95 GHz, 4 Port, OMNI Antenna, 13 dBi, ePMP3K MU-MIMO Compatible, Kit with 4pcs of cables with boots
    5.15 GHz to 5.85 GHz, 4 Port, Omni Antenna, 13 dBi, Slant Polarization | KP-5QSOMNI-13

  2. ITElite QOMD5013XP 5-5.9 GHz, 13 dBi Omni-Directional, Multi MIMO Antenna
    Antennas |

  3. Mimosa N5-360, 4.9-6.4GHz 4x4 360 degree Beamforming Dual Polarity Antenna for A5c, 15 dBi gain, Includes 4x Jumper Cables and 2x Pipe Clamps
    Mimosa Networks

The KPPA and ITElite are actually Cambium Networks recommended antennas for use with their ePMP 3000 (e3K) 4x4 radios. Maybe the N5-360 didn’t make the cut for obvious reasons.

Each of these antennas should be competing in the same space with the Mimosa product boasting of a higher gain at 15 dBi (with more aggressive pricing too) vs the 13 dBi of the other 2 devices.

I noticed that the tests on the Mimosa N5-360 above were done at very, very short ranges (less than 1 km). This would be classified as a nano-PoP in my environment, not a micro-PoP. We are doing about 5-7 km ranges for micro-PoPs with 2x2 MIMO gear and it works wonderfully well.

The main target of using e3K is to be able to use the MU-MIMO benefits. This will require us to change all the SM’s to the 802.11ac devices (F300 series basically). The older 802.11n equipment gear will certainly not do MU-MIMO.

Using an omni is more of trying to reduce the amount of power consumption at base stations because of the lower levels of power availability we experience in this parts of the world. Being able to achieve MU-MIMO will be beneficial because it will be like installing 2 of the older 802.11n 2x2 devices in a single 4x4 unit.

So the ability to be able to achieve the 4x4 MU-MIMO will be critical to the success of our goals. Cost is also a big factor because the newer gears keep increasing in pricing.

ePMP 4000 will certainly be more expensive than its previous generation so no need saying we are waiting for anything new.

The only justification for us to upgrade to the e3K model is to be able to take full advantage of increased throughput and improve customer experience.

If not, we will stick with the lower priced ePMP 3000L (we are really about to buy one e3KL unit next week) and use a regular 2x2 MIMO omni-directional antenna to power it. After all, it can theoretically accommodate 64 clients, more than twice what we are expecting at a single micro-PoP.

The e3KL will also reduce our operating costs as we do not have to change out any SM unit (comprising of F180, F190 and F200). Just the global chip shortages now affecting what we are able to do as a whole.

I will certainly be back here to update the post with whatever strategy we eventually take and the field results we observe.

Thank you very much for the insights once again.

Cheers!

So looking at the specs/patterns for the Mimosa omni it says in the specs it 15dBi but the pattern graphic specifies “Beamforming Gain” and if you zoom in and look really really close there are little very hard to see white lines in the pattern that I assume are the non-beamforming gain and it looks to be about in line with the other two omni’s .

Now… The whole beam “stering” and beam “forming” thing gets really confusing with ePMP, at least for me, because I have been repeatedly corrected when “confusing the two” and told they are two totally different things. However Cambium/ePMP can’t seem to keep them straight either if they are in fact two different things.

ePMP 2000 has an optional “smart antenna” aka “smart beamforming antenna”. All the Cambium literature calls it that. Note that the “smart beamforming antenna” has two rpsma connectors and the 2000 and 3000 radios have two extra rpsma connectors just for the “smart antenna” so the 3000 actually has 6 rpsma , 4 on top and two on the bottom for the “smart antenna”. I point that out because none of the listed Omni’s have any way to connect to the 2000/3000’s beam stearing/forming.

Now just to make things interesting… the ePMP 3000 Spec Sheet refers to this exact same “Smart Antenna” as the “Beam Steering Antenna”… and I mean the same one, it’s not even a different part number, you order the 2000 beam"forming" antenna and use it on the 3000 as the beam “steering” antenna). Even the rpsma connectors on the bottom of the 3000 are labeled “BSA” not “BFA”

So are they two different things ? Does the 2000 do beam"forming" and the 3000 does beam “steering” ? Will you get beam"anything" using any of those Omni’s ?

I have no idea.

The “smart” antenna or BSA is an upload only antenna. You will not be able to connect those two antenna ports on the 2K or 3K to an omni - not designed to do that. The smart antenna is the same exact antenna for the 2K or 3K and it does the same thing. We tried the BSA on a 2K a couple of years ago and did not see an appreciable difference in upload speeds. We also use horn antennas on our deployments with a smaller pattern than the BSA so we prefer to keep everything in the one antenna.

We tried a Mimosa N5 on a 3K AP and swapped it out for the KP antenna. I don’t think Cambium has tested that solution and your mileage certainly will vary using a non-supported antenna. Is it the same exact antenna design as the KP? I have no idea but we use the KP and it works. I wanted to be able to get support from Cambium on our deployments and if I am using a non-supported antenna, the first thing that will be blamed is that antenna not being compatible.

We have used the KP Performance 4x4 Omni for the ePMP 3000, and MU-MIMO works great. We just plopped it in a small sub-division, and with a random neighbor locations, the signals, gain, performance, and the MU-MIMO groupings & gains are awesome.

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Nice. I’ve wanted to try that omni for a while. What distances are your subscribers?

This is a small sub-division of houses, so everyone connected is close… all within 1 KM currently. But everyone is ‘grouped’ with at least 50% (or more) of the other SM’s, and if we push it, the MU-MIMO percentages are about 50% ‘bonus’ data. We will see how it holds up as we upgrade all the customers to F300’s