Force 400C - Downlink modulation

thebracket · October 25, 2022, 1:09pm

(We opened a support request, ticket #328125)

We put up our first Force400C link. The units tested at great modulations across the office (with tiny 3db duck tail antennas), as you’d hope. It was a drop-in replacement for an AirFiber 5XHD link, using UltraDish 27s over a 13.5 mile link. The previous link generally sat at “6X”, and worked - we are hoping for a bit more bandwidth. We configured everything, and replaced the TwistPorts on each end with the new radios.

The link came up (on the same channel as the AF5XHDs).

On 5190 (40 Mhz channel)

Signal is -64/-65
CINR is 33/32
Modulation is SS7/DS7

We’ve tried a bunch of other channels, channel widths (is 4950 really meant to appear in FCC radios?) - and no matter what we do, the AP side modulates the downlink at SS5 to SS8 - never showing a DSx modulation. We also tried the new “maximize throughput”, “balanced” and “low latency” settings - same results each time. (On Maximize Throughput it can push out just under 115 Mbps, which is enough to keep the groaning under control).

The AP is at a noisy downtown site, but the previous link worked and we’ve been really careful not to have anything broadcasting in a nearby frequency (we can’t control the rest of the town). The station is out in the middle of nowhere.

We started with firmware 5.1.3 and updated to 5.3 - no change.

Edit: the AP log is also full of cryptic messages that don’t look healthy:

Oct 25 07:03:58 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS mgtcomd: Apply STA parameters from BC:E6:7C:21:BF:D1: "{'mac':'BC:E6:7C:21:BD:8D','data':'HWADDR=bc:e6:7c:21:bf:d1; HTTPS=0; PORT=80; HOSTNAME=DOUGLAS to PAQUIN; IPADDR=172.16.24.204; IPv6ADDR=; IPADDR_CNS1=52.5.95.225; IPADDR_CNS2=52.72.154.230; FORCE_PATTERN=-1.-1; CT_PROP=0  ;'}"
Oct 25 07:03:57 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS kernel: [ 1858.213205] SM[bc:e6:7c:21:bf:d1] aid=1 associated with AP
Oct 25 07:03:22 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS WLT: Cannot bind /tmp/wlt.socket
Oct 25 07:03:22 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS cnss-daemon[3254]: Receive user message: 4, len 4
Oct 25 07:03:02 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS kernel: [ 1802.757665] SM[bc:e6:7c:21:bf:d1] aid=1 disassociated. Reason: 51 (AP INITIATED DISCONNECT)
Oct 25 06:58:57 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS mgtcomd: Apply STA parameters from BC:E6:7C:21:BF:D1: "{'mac':'BC:E6:7C:21:BD:8D','data':'HWADDR=bc:e6:7c:21:bf:d1; HTTPS=0; PORT=80; HOSTNAME=DOUGLAS to PAQUIN; IPADDR=172.16.24.204; IPv6ADDR=; IPADDR_CNS1=52.5.95.225; IPADDR_CNS2=52.72.154.230; FORCE_PATTERN=-1.-1; CT_PROP=0  ;'}"
Oct 25 06:58:57 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS kernel: [ 1558.023646] SM[bc:e6:7c:21:bf:d1] aid=1 associated with AP
Oct 25 06:58:22 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS WLT: Cannot bind /tmp/wlt.socket
Oct 25 06:58:21 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS cnss-daemon[3254]: Receive user message: 4, len 4
Oct 25 06:58:02 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS kernel: [ 1502.573542] SM[bc:e6:7c:21:bf:d1] aid=1 disassociated. Reason: 51 (AP INITIATED DISCONNECT)
Oct 25 06:56:08 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS mgtcomd: Apply STA parameters from BC:E6:7C:21:BF:D1: "{'mac':'BC:E6:7C:21:BD:8D','data':'HWADDR=bc:e6:7c:21:bf:d1; HTTPS=0; PORT=80; HOSTNAME=DOUGLAS to PAQUIN; IPADDR=172.16.24.204; IPv6ADDR=; IPADDR_CNS1=52.5.95.225; IPADDR_CNS2=52.72.154.230; FORCE_PATTERN=-1.-1; CT_PROP=0  ;'}"
Oct 25 06:56:05 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS kernel: [ 1386.371490] SM[bc:e6:7c:21:bf:d1] aid=1 associated with AP
Oct 25 06:55:42 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS snmpd[8372]: DFS status: In-Service Monitoring
Oct 25 06:54:39 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS WLT: Cannot bind /tmp/wlt.socket
Oct 25 06:54:39 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS cnss-daemon[3254]: Receive user message: 4, len 4
Oct 25 06:54:34 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS snmpd[8372]: DFS status: Channel Availability Check at 5500 MHz, band = 40 MHz
Oct 25 06:54:27 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS snmpd[8372]: DFS status: N/A
Oct 25 06:49:36 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS kernel: [  996.736136] SM[bc:e6:7c:21:bf:d1] aid=1 disassociated. Reason: 53 (AP KEEP ALIVE RX STUCK)
Oct 25 06:49:21 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS kernel: [  981.613487] SM[bc:e6:7c:21:bf:d1] aid=1 associated with AP
Oct 25 06:48:39 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS snmpd[8372]: DFS status: In-Service Monitoring
Oct 25 06:47:44 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS cnss-daemon[3254]: Receive user message: 4, len 4
Oct 25 06:47:39 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS snmpd[8372]: DFS status: Channel Availability Check at 5680 MHz, band = 40 MHz
Oct 25 06:47:29 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS snmpd[8372]: DFS status: N/A
Oct 25 06:47:22 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS kernel: [  862.663236] SM[bc:e6:7c:21:bf:d1] aid=1 disassociated. Reason: 51 (AP INITIATED DISCONNECT)
Oct 25 06:43:11 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS mgtcomd: Apply STA parameters from BC:E6:7C:21:BF:D1: "{'mac':'BC:E6:7C:21:BD:8D','data':'HWADDR=bc:e6:7c:21:bf:d1; HTTPS=0; PORT=80; HOSTNAME=DOUGLAS to PAQUIN; IPADDR=172.16.24.204; IPv6ADDR=; IPADDR_CNS1=52.5.95.225; IPADDR_CNS2=52.72.154.230; FORCE_PATTERN=-1.-1; CT_PROP=0  ;'}"
Oct 25 06:43:11 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS kernel: [  611.600369] SM[bc:e6:7c:21:bf:d1] aid=1 associated with AP
Oct 25 06:42:30 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS WLT: Cannot bind /tmp/wlt.socket
Oct 25 06:42:29 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS cnss-daemon[3254]: Receive user message: 4, len 4
Oct 25 06:41:39 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS kernel: [  520.226766] SM[bc:e6:7c:21:bf:d1] aid=1 disassociated. Reason: 36 (STA INITIATED DISCONNECT)
Oct 25 06:34:41 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS snmpd[8372]: DFS status: In-Service Monitoring
Oct 25 06:34:41 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS passwd: password for home changed by root
Oct 25 06:34:41 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS passwd: password for installer changed by root
Oct 25 06:34:41 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS passwd: password for readonly changed by root
Oct 25 06:34:33 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS mgtcomd: Apply STA parameters from BC:E6:7C:21:BF:D1: "{'mac':'BC:E6:7C:21:BD:8D','data':'HWADDR=bc:e6:7c:21:bf:d1; HTTPS=0; PORT=80; HOSTNAME=DOUGLAS to PAQUIN; IPADDR=172.16.24.204; IPv6ADDR=; IPADDR_CNS1=52.5.95.225; IPADDR_CNS2=52.72.154.230; FORCE_PATTERN=-1.-1; CT_PROP=0  ;'}"
Oct 25 06:34:33 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS kernel: [   93.707418] SM[bc:e6:7c:21:bf:d1] aid=1 associated with AP
Oct 25 06:33:48 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS procd: Set eth0 Speed/Duplex: OK
Oct 25 06:33:48 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS WLT: Cannot bind /tmp/wlt.socket
Oct 25 06:33:48 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS procd: device: wifi2 vifs: cfg063579
Oct 25 06:33:48 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS procd: device: wifi0 vifs: cfg043579
Oct 25 06:33:48 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS cnss-daemon[3254]: Receive user message: 4, len 4
Oct 25 06:33:46 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS procd: sh: out of range
Oct 25 06:33:45 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS procd: sh: out of range
Oct 25 06:33:44 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS procd: sh: 0: unknown operand
Oct 25 06:33:44 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS procd: cfg80211: ifname: ath2 mode: monitor cfgphy: phy2
Oct 25 06:33:44 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS procd: Enable ol_stats by default for Lithium platforms
Oct 25 06:33:44 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS procd: sh: 3: unknown operand
Oct 25 06:33:44 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS procd: cat: can't open '/lib/wifi/wifi_nss_hk_olnum': No such file or directory
Oct 25 06:33:44 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS procd: sh: 1: unknown operand
Oct 25 06:33:44 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS procd: Enable ol_stats by default for Lithium platforms
Oct 25 06:33:43 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS snmpd[2440]: DFS status: In-Service Monitoring
Oct 25 06:33:42 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS DEVICE-AGENT[5045]: SessionID unavailable, regenerating
Oct 25 06:33:42 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS procd: cp: '/cfg/default/ini/global.ini' and '/ini/global.ini' are the same file
Oct 25 06:33:42 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS procd: sh: ath: unknown operand
Oct 25 06:33:42 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS procd: wifi1(cfg053579): Invalid mode, ignored.
Oct 25 06:33:42 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS procd: sh: ath: unknown operand
Oct 25 06:33:42 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS procd: 'wifi1' is disabled
Oct 25 06:33:41 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS procd: OK
Oct 25 06:33:41 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS procd: wep40,wep104,tkip,aes-ocb,aes-ccmp-128,aes-ccmp-256,aes-gcmp-128,aes-gcmp-256,ckip,wapi,aes-cmac-128,aes-gmac-128,aes-gmac-256,none
Oct 25 06:33:36 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS procd: sh: out of range
Oct 25 06:33:35 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS snmpd[2440]: DFS status: N/A
Oct 25 06:33:34 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS procd: sh: 0: unknown operand
Oct 25 06:33:34 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS procd: cfg80211: ifname: ath0 mode: __ap cfgphy: phy0
Oct 25 06:33:34 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS procd: Enable ol_stats by default for Lithium platforms
Oct 25 06:33:33 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS procd: sh: 3: unknown operand
Oct 25 06:33:33 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS procd: cat: can't open '/lib/wifi/wifi_nss_hk_olnum': No such file or directory
Oct 25 06:33:33 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS procd: sh: 1: unknown operand
Oct 25 06:33:33 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS creporterd: kernel process_crash... get_crash_data fail : -1
Oct 25 06:33:33 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS : Enable ol_stats by default for Lithium platforms
Oct 25 06:33:32 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS : 262144 bytes (256.0KB) copied, 0.098046 seconds, 2.5MB/s
Oct 25 06:33:32 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS : 512+0 records out
Oct 25 06:33:32 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS : 512+0 records in
Oct 25 06:33:32 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS rmmod: module is not loaded
Oct 25 06:33:32 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS rmmod: module is not loaded
Oct 25 06:33:31 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS rmmod: module is not loaded
Oct 25 06:33:31 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS rmmod: module is not loaded
Oct 25 06:33:31 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS rmmod: module is not loaded
Oct 25 06:33:31 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS : validation failed
Oct 25 06:33:30 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS : wifitool: unable to send command
Oct 25 06:33:30 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS : wifitool: unable to send command
Oct 25 06:33:30 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS : wifitool: unable to send command
Oct 25 06:33:30 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS : [cfg80211tool] Error: XML path is missed
Oct 25 06:33:30 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS : [cfg80211tool] Error: XML path is missed
Oct 25 06:33:30 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS : 
Oct 25 06:33:30 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS : wifi0     no private ioctls.
Oct 25 06:33:30 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS : [cfg80211tool] Error: XML path is missed
Oct 25 06:33:30 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS : [cfg80211tool] Error: XML path is missed
Oct 25 06:33:30 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS : [cfg80211tool] Error: XML path is missed
Oct 25 06:33:30 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS : [cfg80211tool] Error: XML path is missed
Oct 25 06:33:30 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS : [cfg80211tool] Error: XML path is missed
Oct 25 06:33:30 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS : [cfg80211tool] Error: XML path is missed
Oct 25 06:33:30 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS : [cfg80211tool] Error: XML path is missed
Oct 25 06:33:30 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS : [cfg80211tool] Error: XML path is missed
Oct 25 06:33:30 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS : [cfg80211tool] Error: XML path is missed
Oct 25 06:33:30 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS : [cfg80211tool] Error: XML path is missed
Oct 25 06:33:29 PAQUIN to DOUGLAS WLT: Could not get iface index: No such device

Any suggestions?

ninedd · October 26, 2022, 4:04am

Hi TheBracket – when you log into the Radios and look at the TOOLS → eALIGN what do you see for each chain’s signal?

This is what one of our Force 400 links shows, with all chains being balanced.

Do you see similar, or do you see a huge mismatch in the chains?

This is what we see on our Force 400c 15KM link, usually DS10/DS10 and pretty outstanding performance.

thebracket · October 26, 2022, 12:35pm

Thanks; I did. We’re going to recheck alignment, but in the ticket they’re saying it looks like we have a bad radio at one end. So it’s check everything and swap the radio swap time! (We’re not going to get much better than -59 at this distance/dish combo; we also only need DS5 for the load we require.) One of the radios isn’t even attempting the dual-chain modulations, which is probably a hardware fault.

ninedd · October 26, 2022, 6:34pm

It would be great if you can screenshot your eAlign screen here, so we can see the chains. I’m curious if this fault exhibits itself by showing chains of (Ch0: -56 Ch1: -97) or how exactly it shows up in your eAlign screen.

thebracket · October 26, 2022, 8:40pm

Update, we replaced the radio on the AP side - and everything is happy at DS9/DS9 with the throughput we wanted (and more to spare). I didn’t get screenshots, but e-Align showed one chain with weaker signal than the other - only on one radio. The other looked had matching chains.

My guess is that the faulty radio’s chain wasn’t dead, but wasn’t right either - maybe something loose? We’ve updated the ticket.

scracha · November 1, 2022, 7:33pm

So in terms of throughput and latency, are they better than AF5XHD?

Also, can anyone confirm real world wattage? Spec sheet says 25W which rules out most of our solar sites but I’m hoping in practise they’re closer to the 12W we see on a typical AF5XHD

Eric_Ozrelic · November 1, 2022, 7:49pm

So I can’t comment on direct comparisons between AF5XHD (because I’ve never used this radio), but there have been multiple posts on FB in WISP-Talk and other forums where people have compared the AF5XHD to the F400c or F425 and have said that it performs better, especially in high interference and/or nNLOS connections. Operators are actively rip and replacing their AF5X’s for F400’s. These performance gains are due to the F400 series being based on 802.11ax and using OFDMA.

As to the actual power draw, we have a F400c link up, and the TX power is set to 19dBm, and it’s currently drawing 7w. My guess is that it would only draw the maximum 25w if it was really cold and/or if it was transmitting at the maximum 30dBm TX power.

scracha · November 1, 2022, 9:27pm

Thanks Eric. That’s exactly the feedback I was after.

Cold days…yeah…we found out the hard way about Cambium Radio’s heaters when it snowed last month.

thebracket · November 4, 2022, 2:31pm

I don’t know about power draw, sadly. Replacing like-for-like (same dishes, same alignment), I’m getting both a faster and more stable link with the 400C. This link starts in a busy town, and there’s a low of 5.8ghz interference in the area - and the 400C does a much better job of staying modulated at a good rate.

It’s a long link, we’d need bigger dishes for full modulation - but DS9 on a 40 Mhz channel is significantly out-performing the AF5XHD, which wouldn’t reliably stay connected on a 40 Mhz channel, so it was on a 30 (peaking at 8X in one direction, but falling to 6X and occasionally 4X from time to time).

Jacob_Turner · November 4, 2022, 2:51pm

We replaced a few AF5xHD links with force 425 radios last month on the 25th. You can see the average power consumption drop when the change was made in this example. The Force 4xx does seem to draw close to 25 watts when it is powered on but then settles down quickly.

system · November 7, 2023, 2:28pm

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