Interference issue? Lots of defective blocks in one direction

I’ve got a PTP820 system and started having recurring issues with a loss of lock in one direction. I’ve got an RSL of around -44 and a MSE of around -40 but it is taking a lot of defective blocks in one direction only. The other direction is clean, I’m wondering if we’re taking interference or maybe have a receive issue? Is there a way to prove that?

I’m thinking I could start by shutting down the far end and see how far the RSL drops to see if there is possibly another carrier present but any other suggestions to possibly look at?

You can do a loopback on both ends to verify that the transmitters and receivers are ok.

As a test, you can change the script operating at both ends to the narrowest channel possible and see it that does not improve the defective block statistic. I’ve found interference that way also.

So I dropped it from 2048 QAM to 64 QAM and the errors went completely away.

So sorry for the dumb question but what would that tend to indicate, can you infer something from that?

One additional follow up, I kept creeping the QAM up until I got to Profile 8 / 1024 QAM and then it started taking errors again, dropped it back to Profile 7 / 512 QAM and it’s clean. It’s only happening in one direction, not the other.

Hey LightGuy,

Maybe I can shed a bit of light on your situation.

The mechanisms in any broadband radio to measure signal to noise ratio are slower that some types of noise and interference that affects the data flow in any wireless system. For example, noise caused by other data systems is often bursty, meaning that most of the time, the noise is not there (when you are looking at a signal millisecond by millisecond). RSSI, and signal to noise ratio are measured during a scan…that is not continuously, but samples of the received signal are taken, and statistics calculated on that sample. To avoid disturbing the received signal, the sample time is short so the receiver can spend most of its time being a receiver and looking for signal to decode.
Secondly, to decode a stream of symbols that have been transmitted by the remote transmitter, that symbol needs to have a high enough signal to noise ratio to properly decode the symbol. QPSK needs 8 dB SNR, QAM 16 needs 13 dB, QAM 64 needs 23 dB, QAM 256 needs 28 dB, QAM 1024 needs 34 dB for most receivers. Errors occur when the momentary SNR is not higher than these values. For example, if the QAM 256 modulation has only 20 dB SNR, some of the bits in the symbol (the symbol represents 8 bits) will be errored. If the forward error correction cannot determine what the errored bits should be, then the symbol needs to be retransmitted. Symbols are always transmitted in a group (a resource block). If the FEC of the resource block cannot be determined, the resource block is re-transmitted. That is when you see errors in the statistics.
By forcing the modulation level lower, you are reducing the signal to noise ratio required to demodulate the frame. In your case, you have about 38 dB effective SNR…you do not have the 40+ dB to decode the QAM 1024 modulated symbols.
So how does this all come together? The AP has received a low modulation set of frames from the SM when the SM joined the sector. From the registration exchange, the AP knows the signal quality from the SM. Then, as traffic flows to and from the SM, when the AP transmits a frame to the SM, the SM responds with a signal quality or cell quality value. The scheduler in the AP uses that response to set the DL modulation level to the SM. When the SM requests UL bandwidth, the AP determines the modulation level that the SM should transmit the UL data. Normally, this multi-rate algorithm can handle signal fading, and most kinds of interference, and adjust the MCS (modulation coding scheme) on the fly, adjusting to allow the highest error free data rate in both DL and UL.
Where the MR algorithm breaks down is when the noise from an interferer is very short in duration, and very high in level. For example, we have a tower with 4 sectors. We have SM’s scattered all around the tower, connected to each of the sectors. Let’s say we are using Reuse = 2, meaning that east and west uses F1, and north and south uses F2. All SM’s facing south and north use the same transmit frequency. If we are receiving UL from a north facing SM (that is connected to the south facing sector), and a south facing SM connected to the north facing sector transmits at the very same moment, the south facing sector will receive the desired SM’s signal plus the signal from the SM on the opposite sector at the same time, momentarily raising the noise floor of the south AP. If that signal raises the noise floor by 6 dB, that may be enough that the desired SM’s data may be errored for that moment. A retransmission is called for, and a random timer changes when the frame is transmitted, and perhaps the multi-rate algorithm reduces the MCS for the retransmission, and the second attempt is successful.
I apologize for the long-winded explanation.
Setting the MCS level manually might stop the error counters, since there is no error. But, setting the MCS artificially low with also limit the capacity of the sector. With the MCS set to highest rate, and the multi-rate mechanism working, the only way to know what the effect of the errors (specifically retransmissions) are is a throughput test. I love the fact that Cambium builds the link test into the system. It is your best troubleshooting tool to see what the effect of any momentary interference might be. This momentary interference is called noise rise. Generally, the AP’s receiver (the uplink) suffers the most from it as the AP’s antennas are high in the air and can receive more interference from nearby devices than the SM’s receiver, which is generally lower in height, and has a more directional antenna.
If anyone wants to discuss this further, let’s keep this going. I hope this helps explain what you are observing.

Thanks I appreciate the detailed response, but this is a licensed 6 GHz PtP link, these are not AP’s so that’s what’s puzzling to me is these links are coordinated and licensed and this is something new that has not been an issue previously.

So I’m trying to somehow diagnose is it possibly interference (maybe someone’s dish has blown off and is aimed at our dish?), maybe we have a radio that is having issues at the higher QAM’s? Or possibly an alighment issue but yet our RSL and MER look ok.

Which is also puzzling to me, why would the MER be normal but yet I’m having tons of block errors, isn’t it supposed to be measuring the error rate?

Changing to a licensed link does change the view, but the error principle is the same. Since licensed links are not TDD OFDM radios, as PMP systems are, there are fewer variables.
A PTP receiver has one task…decode the transmission from the remote transmitter. There are no retransmissions, only errors. The principle of SNR required to decode a particular modulation level still holds.
Let’s put external interference aside right now. Since 6 GHz PTP is licensed, and AFC for PMP is meant to protect the licensed link by reducing the transmit power of any PMP or unlicensed PTP.
In any FDD PTP network, the transmitter must be linear (distortion free) to transmit the modulation properly. The ONT network, if used to connect the radio to the parabolic antenna must be damage free to maintain the linear transmission. At the other end of the link, the ONT if used on the receiver must be damage free, and the receiver’s front end must handle the received energy distortion free. The front end of the receiver includes a filter, an oscillator, and a mixer.
I recommend a few steps to determine any issue like you are experiencing:

  1. Loopback at each end. Determines if there are any hardware issues with each radio.
  2. Reduce tx power by 3 dB, make sure the receive power drops by 3 dB.
  3. Reduce channel width if possible. For example, on this 6 GHz link, assuming you are using 30 MHz channel, try temporarily changing the script to 10 MHz channel on both radios, and notice the error rate.

These tests may help you determine hardware or internal error vs. external interference. In 11 GHz bands, I have witnessed external interference in locations in Canada. Other bands are not as highly utilized, so external interference is less likely.

Ok thanks, I hadn’t heard about the 3dB trick before, interesting idea to see if the transmitter is in compression and not making full power. I used to do that on satellite uplink we would keep going up until we could see the transmitter was into compression and no further gain was being realized.

I’m just spoiled with normally hooking up an Agilent SA and looking at things to see if it’s clean, if there is noise or other ‘junk’ around. Having the radio up on the tower and not being able to put eyes on the spectrum is frustrating for troubleshooting.

But I’m still puzzled by the MSE, shouldn’t block errors show up as a reduction in MSE? Shouldn’t I see an error rate change? Associated with the issue? I keep a 365 day log of the MSE and RSL and it’s consistently running around a -38 to -40dB

MSE of -40dB is perfect. You need about 44 dB or SNR to pass QAM 4096, and it looks like you have about 35 dB or so. Since you are using 6 GHz, I assume a long link (20 miles +): 138 to 144 dB propagation loss. 6 ft antennas? 40 dBi? TX power +20 dBm? RSSI = -38 dBm or so on 20-mile link? Noise floor is -98 dBm on 30 MHz channel? Noise figure 5 dB? I think your SNR should be around 56 dB.
It would be interesting to know what the results of loopbacks on both ends would be.