Just wondering if there are plans to build a ePMP 2000 in 2.4ghz?
Thanks,
Brandon
Hi Brandon,
No, there are no plans to build an ePMP 2000 in the 2.4 GHz band. However, we will keep an eye on the market and evaluate if the need arises.
Thanks,
Sriram
Id purchase epmp2000 in 2.4 if it were available. I could use atleast 50 of them but would probably change every 2.4 ap to them eventually to keep noise out of the way. I'd add BSA to them if it were an option as well. i've got 200 2.4 ap active now.
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As I was looking over the forums I caught this post. I also have several 2.4 AP's that I would GLADLY upgrade to a 2.4 that had the 2000 goodies. I personally believe the 'channel filtering' is the difference maker!
When Mfg.’s wake up to the FACT that the name of the game is SPECTRUM it would benefit ALL parties involved. 5.8 is the spec. of choice but I call 2.4 "THE FORGOTTEN" spectrum. I find it interesting that Cambium as a Corp has decided to put so much energy in the Elevate idea when the reality is if I am running ePMP2000 AP's I am going to get my customers OVER on Cambium SM's ASAP for the best performance. And then on top of that Cambium puts time and money in completely over hauling their 900 units which only have 2 usable 10MGz channels and AP's that ONLY allow 25Meg through put??? I do understand the NLOS with 900.... but the tradeoff of Tower space for the Antennas and the cost of the equipment VS 25Meg is not cost effective for my company. DEMAND FOR LARGER Meg packages is higher than ever and is going to keep going higher.
So why not put the MONEY AND ENERGY into a spectrum that we can all put to a positive result... using freer available spectrum. I am running my ePMP2000 AP's on 40MGz and getting 140-160Meg Ag. through put and I know the "channel filtering' is the reason that is happening. The BF Smart Antenna is a great thing... BUT a "CLEAN" channel is the name of the game.
I am on the ‘Bandwagon’ for 2.4 AP’s with the GREAT Engineering behind the 2000 product line. A BIG THANK YOU to Cambium for the Epmp2000 product line. I am converting ALL of my 5.8 over ASAP. Regards.
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I've gotten the impression that there hasn't really been a lot of interest in ePMP in the 2.4ghz band (at least not compared to 5ghz). Last time I asked (I have asked more than once... ), I was told there were no plans for an ePMP 2000 in 2.4ghz, but it sounded like they would consider it if there was enough interest.
To be fair, I have bought a grand total of one 2.4ghz ePMP AP... but if we switch all our 2.4ghz stuff over to ePMP, we'll be be needing at least 150 APs.... I would rather go straight to ePMP 2000s for a lot of those, if it were an option. One thing that we do have to consider deciding whether or not to switch over to ePMP in 2.4ghz is the fact that the competitions new (not yet released) 2.4ghz product does have filtering. Of course if it comes down to a choice between GPS sync and filtering, GPS sync is going to win... and at this point, it looks like that likely will be the case.
Hmmm.... Qoute from Sriram: "However, we will keep an eye on the market and evaluate if the need arises. " Let me do the math..... 4 WISP have posted on this string. Here are the 'results':
Mathew: "we'll be be needing at least 150 APs".
Chris: "I could use atleast 50 of them but would probably change every 2.4 ap to them eventually to keep noise out of the way. I'd add BSA to them if it were an option as well. i've got 200 2.4 ap active now."
Brandon: Created the post so we can assume he needs product also.
Randall: I would think it is obvious, to most casual observer, that he wants the product.
Let's do the Math for the Posters: 4 WISP Owners/People involved with a WISP, have stated that they would BUY the product., and might I add at LARGE volume. "0", None, Nada, Zealch, have said it does not interest them.
Now lets do the $$$Math for Cambium JUST with Chris and Brandon ONLY: Basing the cost on the 5.8 ePMP2000 Radio, Sector, and Smart Ant. = $1,009.29. Let's round that off to $1,100.00 Since Cambium charges right at $100.00 more for their 2.4 Sector than they do for there 5.8 Sector.
350 total AP's (Radio, Sector, SA) X $1,100.00 = $385,000.00. Hmmmm..... 2 WISP.... Maybe this information needs to make it's way to the CAMBIUM CEO AND CFO... Not the Engineers running the Forum.
JUST SAYING!!!
Regards to all.... Including the Engineers. Bottom Line.... WE ALL NEED EACH OTHER. PLEASE get this information to Marketing and the POWERS to be.
Thanks for listening.
Randall B. Fowler
CEO/Owner
HBE Internet
870-423-6223 - Office
iamrbf@gmail.com
@iamrbf wrote:Hmmm.... Qoute from Sriram: "However, we will keep an eye on the market and evaluate if the need arises. " Let me do the math..... 4 WISP have posted on this string. Here are the 'results':
Mathew: "we'll be be needing at least 150 APs".
Chris: "I could use atleast 50 of them but would probably change every 2.4 ap to them eventually to keep noise out of the way. I'd add BSA to them if it were an option as well. i've got 200 2.4 ap active now."
Brandon: Created the post so we can assume he needs product also.
Randall: I would think it is obvious, to most casual observer, that he wants the product.
Let's do the Math for the Posters: 4 WISP Owners/People involved with a WISP, have stated that they would BUY the product., and might I add at LARGE volume. "0", None, Nada, Zealch, have said it does not interest them.
Now lets do the $$$Math for Cambium JUST with Chris and Brandon ONLY: Basing the cost on the 5.8 ePMP2000 Radio, Sector, and Smart Ant. = $1,009.29. Let's round that off to $1,100.00 Since Cambium charges right at $100.00 more for their 2.4 Sector than they do for there 5.8 Sector.
350 total AP's (Radio, Sector, SA) X $1,100.00 = $385,000.00. Hmmmm..... 2 WISP.... Maybe this information needs to make it's way to the CAMBIUM CEO AND CFO... Not the Engineers running the Forum.
JUST SAYING!!!
Regards to all.... Including the Engineers. Bottom Line.... WE ALL NEED EACH OTHER. PLEASE get this information to Marketing and the POWERS to be.
Thanks for listening.
Randall B. Fowler
CEO/Owner
HBE Internet
870-423-6223 - Office
iamrbf@gmail.com
as badly as i want it, watching the MAC addresses increase on the AP we are getting, it looks like cambium sells 6x more 5ghz APs than 2.4 of course thats just a guess based on the speed in which the APs mac addresses increase over time.
I'd imagine even if everyone switched to a epmp 2000 AP over the 1000, that still isn't enough sales to justify the cost of developing the system unfortunately. I'd love beam steering, but i'd settle for a fix attached filter so we could feed a 2.4 site with a 2.4 radio and not have co-band interference between the radios. don't have that need very often, but that'd be my number one use for just a 2000 radio. I'd add beam stearing to every single 2.4 AP if it were there. on-channel uplink is my number one noise issue with 2.4
I would be surprised if they were selling a lot more than 6x as many 5ghz as 2.4ghz radios.
My main interesting in a 2.4ghz ePMP 2000 would be filtering as well. I imagine beam forming would be incredibly useful at 2.4ghz, but I don't know that I could justify that cost at a lot of our sites, so it would likely be relatively few that I'd end up using it on.
I suspect it's true that there's just aren't going to be enough sales to justify the cost of developing the system. I know a lot of WISPs are pretty much abandoning the 2.4ghz band, and I don't see that changing without some kind of major improvements, and even then a lot of us aren't going to be willing to put any major investment into a band that's gotten trashed so badly over the past few years - which is similar to what happened in the 900mhz band.
I hear you on your comments about sales, 2.4, ECT.
Your last statement about the 900 Also. But..... Cambium DID put the time, money, ECT. in the 900 with only 2ea. 10MGz channels getting a total of 25Meg through an AP. Don't understand the 900 over the 2.4 other than penetration. But I do understand that I will never understand! Haha!
I still believe that the main issue for myself and other WISP I talk with is Sprectrum. I hate to see spectrum that the FCC has given us sit and not be used. Then with Cambium producied channel filtering and not put it to use in the 2.4 specturrm seems short sighted. What I think is being missed is the fact that how many of your 2.4 customers could you change over to 5.8? Some of coarse, I have done more with the ePMP2000 5.8 than any other 5.8 but still 5.8 does not penetrate like 2.4. We are also finding that the 2.4 interference is less today than a few years ago.
Bottom line is - Cambium is going to do what Cambium wants to do and understandably so. I think sometimes the shear number of 2.4 WISP customers that are currently in place gets over looked. I can only image with the results I have gotten from the ePMP2000 product what a 2.4 signal with that tech would produce!! I would love to know!
We have over 100 non-Cambium (and non-UBNT) AP's in 2.4 Ghz and our mix of farm / bush there are many areas where 5Ghz doesn't work. I'd love to have a 2.4Ghz LITE Access Point and I'd love to see one with Filtering so that we can stack more of them more closely together without self interfering.
Beam steering would be good - but filtering would be my #1 concern. We'd be able to use 10 Mhz wide channels and fit things more closely together and really use that spectrum better.
Yes!! on the 10MGz! We have been running AP's in the 10MGz range for a while. Wonderful alternative to 900. It is amazing how many you can run on a tower. I have had as many as 5 running without any issues of self-noise. Of course, I do have Sector Shields to help.
I would love to see more people post here so we can continue letting the Cambium Powers to be KNOW that there are a "Bucket Load" of EXISTING 2.4 AP's out there that are Prime for upgrades!
My experience so far with existing Cambium 2.4 Radios with Cambium Sectors has been LESS than I expected. I have been running MTik for about 8 years and MTik plows thru trees much better than Cambium.... just my experience. My customers are in North West Arkansas in the Boston Mountain Range. 55,000 acres of National Forest with the Rural and small towns scattered within that Forest Range. Very NON-forgiving on tree issues. There is no doubt that the channel filtering would work wonderful up here since the problem in Noise taking away the QOS of the signal. It will show a good signal level but the QOS (real throughput and packet loss) don't hold up.
I believe the big difference with say Cambium over MTik is you would change for the GPS sink. Well let’s look at that for a minute. On existing Cambium, I can NOT run 10MGz and still have GPS. OK…. If that’s the case then I stay with 20MGz if I want to run Cambium because, in my case anyway, running in OPEN Wi-Fi is NOT going to work. But with MTik at least I have their own Engineering which I can run NV2 which helps big time on syncing AP’s and SM/CPE. It’s not GPS but it kicks butt on open Wi-Fi. Without Channel Filtering on the Cambium 2.4, and running 20MGz, my experience is the noise in the 20MGz freq. is too much for the Radios to over-come.
Here is what I see myself doing going forward. I will deploy ‘some’ Cambium 2.4, limited to areas that are mostly noise free. These will be areas not crossing towns or larger sub-divisions, ECT. Then I will have MTik also running 10MGz to reach the N(Near)LOS customers and customers in high noise areas. I have found the 10MGz will resist 20MGHz noise well on its own. We put a lot of RD-24 Dishes for better gain and shield off noise VS panels and plastic type SM’s.
Then when (If) Cambium decides to make a butt load of money by applying their ‘channel filtering’ tech to the 2.4 band I will convert everything I can to Cambium.
Signed: Just a guy selling Magic Smoke!
Yes!! on the 10MGz! We have been running AP's in the 10MGz range for a while. Wonderful alternative to 900. It is amazing how many you can run on a tower. I have had as many as 5 running without any issues of self-noise. Of course, I do have Sector Shields to help.
I would love to see more people post here so we can continue letting the Cambium Powers to be KNOW that there are a "Bucket Load" of EXISTING 2.4 AP's out there that are Prime for upgrades! My experience so far with existing Cambium 2.4 Radios with Cambium Sectors has been LESS than I expected. I have been running MTik for about 8 years and MTik plows thru trees much better than Cambium.... just my experience.
My customers are in North West Arkansas in the Boston Mountain Range. 55,000 acres of National Forest with the Rural and small towns scattered within that Forest Range. Very NON-forgiving on tree issues. There is no doubt that the channel filtering would work wonderful up here since the problem in Noise taking away the QOS of the signal. It will show a good signal level but the QOS (real throughput and packet loss) don't hold up.
I believe the big difference with say Cambium over MTik is you would change for the GPS sink. Well let’s look at that for a minute. On existing Cambium, I can NOT run 10MGz and still have GPS. OK…. If that’s the case then I stay with 20MGz if I want to run Cambium because, in my case anyway, running in OPEN Wi-Fi is NOT going to work. But with MTik at least I have their own Engineering which I can run NV2 which helps big time on syncing AP’s and SM/CPE. It’s not GPS but it kicks butt on open Wi-Fi. Without Channel Filtering on the Cambium 2.4, and running 20MGz, my experience is the noise in the 20MGz freq. is too much for the Radios to over-come.
Here is what I see myself doing going forward. I will deploy ‘some’ Cambium 2.4, limited to areas that are mostly noise free. These will be areas not crossing towns or larger sub-divisions, ECT. Then I will have MTik also running 10MGz to reach the N(Near)LOS customers and customers in high noise areas. I have found the 10MGz will resist 20MGHz noise well on its own. We put a lot of RD-24 Dishes for better gain and shield off noise VS panels and plastic type SM’s.
Then when (If) Cambium decides to make a butt load of money by applying their ‘channel filtering’ tech to the 2.4 band I will convert everything I can to Cambium.
Signed: Just a guy selling Magic Smoke!
Sorry to be a party pooper, but we will not be buying any more 2.4GHz products. Period. The noise in the band, much like 900, make it worthless. The noise floor at the tower usually isn't so bad. It's the noise at the SM. From the customer's own router, to their neighbor's router, extra APs for large homes, security systems, etc. When the downlink SNR is 7dB, you're not gonna get much out of it.
Sharing experiences is what it is all about. Nothing about your reply surprises me or most likely anyone else on this forum. If you read one of my replies on this string you will see we only use it AWAY for towns and cities and try not to CROSS any subvisions or multiple homes. I would agree with NO Channel filtering any OPEN Freq. is going to have Noise issues. I think the MAIN push in this string is to let the Cambium powers to be know that if they are going to expect ANY long term sales of Wireless equipment they need to Engineer the CHANNEL FILTERING into their radios.
@George Skorup wrote:Sorry to be a party pooper, but we will not be buying any more 2.4GHz products. Period. The noise in the band, much like 900, make it worthless. The noise floor at the tower usually isn't so bad. It's the noise at the SM. From the customer's own router, to their neighbor's router, extra APs for large homes, security systems, etc. When the downlink SNR is 7dB, you're not gonna get much out of it.
These things could be mitigated greatly if Cambium did the following:
A) a way to run the Spectrum Analyzer on a customer's SM remotely. Right now, we have no way to tell what noise the client's radio is hearing
B) a way to do a 'eDetect' on the client which shows all WiFi devices, in all widths. Right now, we have no way to tell what devices are there.
@so, if for example we're in 2457 @ 10 Mhz, and the customer's router is 2457 @ 20 Mhz - eDetect will say there are no interferers... which of course there are.
SO - for me, most of the customer side 2.4 Ghz noise issues could be mitigated - or at least we could help the client solve them - if we could A) do a remote SA on their SM, and B) if we could do a remote ''Super eDetect''.
Remote spectrum analyzer and an eDetect that could see everything (which I have been asking for for awhile...) would certainly be helpful, but you can only fix those issues if the interferer is something that you (or the customer) has control over.... if it's a neighbors router and sixteen extra APs that are causing the issue you're pretty much out of luck.
The fact is, the band has gotten pretty well trashed... there's no way I'd even consider investing in something like PMP450 in 2.4ghz at this point, but if we can use Elevate to get a decent improvement out of what we already have out there, that's a whole different thing.
oh... and you can do GPS sync with 10mhz channel - as far as I know, the only thing you can't do with 10mhz channels that you can with 20mhz is use 2.5ms frames... which, in practice, pretty much just means you'll have a bit more latency.
Hmmmm.... did not think you could do 10MGz on ePMP1000 2.4 AP and GPS? I know on mine you can not. You have to take my unit OFF of TDD to even get the 10MGz option to show up?
@iamrbf wrote:
Hmmmm.... did not think you could do 10MGz on ePMP1000 2.4 AP and GPS? I know on mine you can not. You have to take my unit OFF of TDD to even get the 10MGz option to show up?
5 MHz and 10 MHz are not available only with 2.5 ms frame size. With 5 ms frame size, 5 and 10 MHz are available and you can do GPS sync with them.
Mathew Howard wrote: The fact is, the band has gotten pretty well trashed...
For us, our previous (non-Cambium) gear had pretty much stopped working, but when we replaced hat with ePMP, the difference was dramatic. Case in point was my house - I kept the sector antenna at the AP the same (just changed the AP Radio) and at my house I kept the same antenna there - just changed the SM radio. The differnce was dramatic, it went from <1 mbit most of the time, to a full 10 Mbit (QOS limit) all of the time.
So yes, it is noisy - but it's also what ePMP is able to do in that noisy environment. It's not magic of course, but it sure feels like it is sometimes. :) I'd love to know what filtering on the AP (a 2.4 eMP2000) could do. :)